Thom Talks with . . . Craig Unger

A transcript of a discussion with Craig Unger

In the final installment of our Secret History of Treason, Craig Unger joins Thom Hartmann to discuss how the CIA's Bill Casey helped Iran keep Americans hostage.

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Thom: The Treason That Stole the White House. Craig and I were just talking about Bill Casey, whom Reagan put in charge of the CIA. He was in charge of Reagan's campaign in 1980 and was deeply involved in working with the Iranians to hold the hostages, thus denying Carter the presidency. Craig, what happened next?

Well, actually, we’ve got about five minutes here. I want to get through all of this, but I also want to ask—what do we do about this now? In retrospect, is there any chance that this will break through, or that the Democrats will start talking about it?

Craig Unger: Well, my hope is that Americans finally come to terms with this. As a country, I think we’re often in denial about the darker parts of our history. This is something we’ve denied repeatedly. It goes back to the origins of America. For me, it’s very personal. This country struggles to accept its dark past.

When I was a child, I took my first trip to Europe. My father took me to Germany, to the concentration camps. I went to Dachau, and you see that it’s a monument to the victims—they’re honoring the victims. I was about 13 or 14 then. Afterward, I came back to the United States and went on a Texas history trip. I’m from Dallas, and we visited the Alamo. At the Alamo, I realized—though it wasn’t until many years later—it was a completely different story than what I’d been taught.

The Alamo wasn’t about the heroics of Davy Crockett and so on. It was really a battle over slavery. At the time, Texas was a province of Mexico, and Mexico had abolished slavery. The Alamo was a fight for the slave owners to continue engaging in the slave trade. America has long struggled with this. Confederate flags at Trump rallies are the equivalent of swastikas.

I thought this might break through a couple of years ago when Ben Barnes, the former lieutenant governor of Texas, told The New York Times that he was on one of the flights to Paris where the deal to hold the hostages was being negotiated. There are bits and pieces of evidence that only make sense if the October Surprise took place. I think I can finally put to rest any doubts about it. I have the receipts, and they’re in my book—printed copies of invoices of weapons traded by political operatives working with Bill Casey. These weapons ended up in Iran.

The president of Iran at the time delivered those receipts to the House of Representatives, which was investigating. But they were just filed away, left in cardboard boxes in an abandoned storage room on Capitol Hill. A colleague of mine, Bob Perry, actually found them under a tampon dispenser. That’s how much of a whitewash the Congressional investigation was.

We’ve seen treason repeatedly: Nixon with the Vietnamese to win the election; Reagan with Iran; George W. Bush being put into office by the Supreme Court because Katherine Harris refused to count 45,000 ballots for Al Gore; and Donald Trump with help from Russia. It seems the last legitimate Republican president we had was Dwight Eisenhower. Is that a message America is ready to accept?

Craig: Well, we haven’t fully accepted it yet, but we need to start. If I could criticize the Democrats, it’s for being too passive—for not enforcing accountability. We need more oversight. They should be raising hell about this.

Thom: Craig, your book is Den of Spies: Reagan, Carter, and the Secret History of Treason. Are there plans for any Congressional inquiries? Have you spoken with anyone on Capitol Hill who might be interested in reviving this?

Craig: I think it’s too far in the past now. The Democrats don’t control Congress, so it’s not feasible. They also don’t seem to have the appetite for it right now. They’re focused on fighting off Trump.

Thom: Just about 30 seconds left. The president of Iran in 1980 told The Christian Science Monitor that they worked with Reagan, correct?

Craig: Yes. I spoke to President Bani-Sadr, who was living in exile in France. It was a double coup. Not only was Jimmy Carter forced out of office—losing partly as a result of the hostage crisis—but the same thing happened in Iran. President Bani-Sadr survived three assassination attempts before fleeing the country. The Republicans allied themselves with the hardline, theocratic fundamentalists in Iran, not the secular Democrats.

Thom: Got it. Craig, we’re out of time. The book is Den of Spies. It’s brilliant. Craig Unger, thank you so much.

Craig: Thank you, Thom. Great talking with you.